Ath.Whether the better is ever really conquered by the worse,is a question which requires more discussion,and may be therefore left for the present.But I now quite understand your meaning when you say that citizens who are of the same race and live in the same cities may unjustly conspire,and having the superiority in numbers may overcome and enslave the few just;and when they prevail,the state may be truly called its own inferior and therefore bad;and when they are defeated,its own superior and therefore good.
Cle.Your remark,Stranger,is a paradox,and yet we cannot possibly deny it.
Ath.Here is another case for consideration;-in a family there may be several brothers,who are the offspring of a single pair;very possibly the majority of them may be unjust,and the just may be in a minority.
Cle.Very possibly.
Ath.And you and I ought not to raise a question of words as to whether this family and household are rightly said to be superior when they conquer,and inferior when they are conquered;for we are not now considering what may or may not be the proper or customary way of speaking,but we are considering the natural principles of right and wrong in laws.
Cle.What you say,Stranger,is most true.
Meg.Quite excellent,in my opinion,as far as we have gone.
Ath.Again;might there not be a judge over these brethren,of whom we were speaking?
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.Now,which would be the better judge-one who destroyed the bad and appointed the good to govern themselves;or one who,while allowing the good to govern,let the bad live,and made them voluntarily submit?Or third,I suppose,in the scale of excellence might be placed a judge,who,finding the family distracted,not only did not destroy any one,but reconciled them to one another for ever after,and gave them laws which they mutually observed,and was able to keep them friends.
Cle.The last would be by far the best sort of judge and legislator.
Ath.And yet the aim of all the laws which he gave would be the reverse of war.
Cle.Very true.
Ath.And will he who constitutes the state and orders the life of man have in view external war,or that kind of intestine war called civil,which no one,if he could prevent,would like to have occurring in his own state;and when occurring,every one would wish to be quit of as soon as possible?
Cle.He would have the latter chiefly in view.
Ath.And would he prefer that this civil war should be terminated by the destruction of one of the parties,and by the victory of the other,or that peace and friendship should be re-established,and that,being reconciled,they should give their attention to foreign enemies?
Cle.Every one would desire the latter in the case of his own state.
Ath.And would not that also be the desire of the legislator?
Cle.Certainly.
Ath.And would not every one always make laws for the sake of the best?
Cle.To be sure.
Ath.But war,whether external or civil,is not the best,and the need of either is to be deprecated;but peace with one another,and good will,are best.Nor is the victory of the state over itself to be regarded as a really good thing,but as a necessity;a man might as well say that the body was in the best state when sick and purged by medicine,forgetting that there is also a state of the body which needs no purge.And in like manner no one can be a true statesman,whether he aims at the happiness of the individual or state,who looks only,or first of all,to external warfare;nor will he ever be a sound legislator who orders peace for the sake of war,and not war for the sake of peace.
Cle.I suppose that there is truth,Stranger,in that remark of yours;and yet I am greatly mistaken if war is not the entire aim and object of our own institutions,and also of the Lacedaemonian.
Ath.I dare say;but there is no reason why we should rudely quarrel with one another about your legislators,instead of gently questioning them,seeing that both we and they are equally in earnest.Please follow me and the argument closely:-And first I will put forward Tyrtaeus,an Athenian by birth,but also a Spartan citizen,who of all men was most eager about war:Well,he says,"I sing not,I care not,about any man,even if he were the richest of men,and possessed every good (and then he gives a whole list of them),if he be not at all times a brave warrior."I imagine that you,too,must have heard his poems;our Lacedaemonian friend has probably heard more than enough of them.
Meg.Very true.
Cle.And they have found their way from Lacedaemon to Crete.
Ath.Come now and let us all join in asking this question of Tyrtaeus:O most divine poet,we will say to him,the excellent praise which you have bestowed on those who excel in war sufficiently proves that you are wise and good,and I and Megillus and Cleinias of Cnosus do,as I believe,entirely agree with you.But we should like to be quite sure that we are speaking of the same men;tell us,then,do you agree with us in thinking that there are two kinds of war;or what would you say?A far inferior man to Tyrtaeus would have no difficulty in replying quite truly,that war is of two kinds one which is universally called civil war,and is as we were just now saying,of all wars the worst;the other,as we should all admit,in which we fall out with other nations who are of a different race,is a far milder form of warfare.
Cle.Certainly,far milder.
Ath.Well,now,when you praise and blame war in this high-flown strain,whom are you praising or blaming,and to which kind of war are you referring?I suppose that you must mean foreign war,if I am to judge from expressions of yours in which you say that you abominate those Who refuse to look upon fields of blood,and will not draw near and strike at their enemies.
And we shall naturally go on to say to him-You,Tyrtaeus,as it seems,praise those who distinguish themselves in external and foreign war;and he must admit this.
Cle.Evidently.