He did not remember any ending to his interrogation. There was a period of blackness and then the cell， or room， in which he now was had gradually materialized round him. He was almost flat on his back， and unable to move. His body was held down at every essential point. Even the back of his head was gripped in some manner. O’Brien was looking down at him gravely and rather sadly. His face， seen from below， looked coarse and worn， with pouches under the eyes and tired lines from nose to chin. He was older than Winston had thought him； he was perhaps forty-eight or fifty. Under his hand there was a dial with a lever on top and figures running round the face.
“I told you，”said O’Brien，“that if we met again it would be here.”
“Yes，”said Winston.
Without any warning except a slight movement of O"Brien"s hand， a wave of pain flooded his body. It was a frightening pain， because he could not see what was happening， and he had the feeling that some mortal injury was being done to him. He did not know whether the thing was really happening， or whether the effect was electrically produced； but his body was being wrenched out of shape， the joints were being slowly torn apart. Although the pain had brought the sweat out on his forehead， the worst of all was the fear that his backbone was about to snap. He set his teeth and breathed hard through his nose， trying to keep silent as long as possible.
“You are afraid，”said O’Brien， watching his face，“that in another moment something is going to break. Your especial fear is that it will be your backbone. You have a vivid mental picture of the vertebrae snapping apart and the spinal fluid dripping out of them. That is what you are thinking， is it not， Winston？”
Winston did not answer. O’Brien drew back the lever on the dial. The wave of pain receded almost as quickly as it had come.
“That was forty，”said O’Brien.“You can see that the numbers on this dial run up to a hundred. Will you please remember， throughout our conversation， that I have it in my power to inflict pain on you at any moment and to whatever degree I choose？ If you tell me any lies， or attempt to prevaricate in any way， or even fall below your usual level of intelligence， you will cry out with pain， instantly. Do you understand that？”
“Yes，”said Winston.
O’Brien’s manner became less severe. He resettled his spectacles thoughtfully， and took a pace or two up and down. When he spoke his voice was gentle and patient. He had the air of a doctor， a teacher， even a priest， anxious to explain and persuade rather than to punish.
“I am taking trouble with you， Winston，”he said，“because you are worth trouble. You know perfectly well what is the matter with you. You have known it for years， though you have fought against the knowledge. You are mentally deranged. You suffer from a defective memory. You are unable to remember real events and you persuade yourself that you remember other events which never happened. Fortunately it is curable. You have never cured yourself of it， because you did not choose to. There was a small effort of the will that you were not ready to make. Even now， I am well aware， you are clinging to your disease under the impression that it is a virtue. Now we will take an example. At this moment， which power is Oceania at war with？”
“When I was arrested， Oceania was at war with Eastasia.”
“With Eastasia. Good. And Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia， has it not？”
Winston drew in his breath. He opened his mouth to speak and then did not speak. He could not take his eyes away from the dial.
“The truth， please， Winston. Your truth. Tell me what you think you remember.”
“I remember that until only a week before I was arrested， we were not at war with Eastasia at all. We were in alliance with them. The war was against Eurasia. That had lasted for four years. Before that —”
O’Brien stopped him with a movement of the hand.
“Another example，”he said.“Some years ago you had a very serious delusion indeed. You believed that three men， three onetime Party members named Jones， Aaronson， and Rutherford men who were executed for treachery and sabotage after making the fullest possible confession — were not guilty of the crimes they were charged with. You believed that you had seen unmistakable documentary evidence proving that their confessions were false. There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.”
An oblong slip of newspaper had appeared between O’Brien’s fingers. For perhaps five seconds it was within the angle of Winston’s vision. It was a photograph， and there was no question of its identity. It was the photograph. It was another copy of the photograph of Jones， Aaronson， and Rutherford at the party function in New York， which he had chanced upon eleven years ago and promptly destroyed. For only an instant it was before his eyes， then it was out of sight again. But he had seen it， unquestionably he had seen it！ He made a desperate， agonizing effort to wrench the top half of his body free. It was impossible to move so much as a centimetre in any direction. For the moment he had even forgotten the dial. All he wanted was to hold the photograph in his fingers again， or at least to see it.
“It exists！”he cried.
“No，”said O’Brien.
He stepped across the room. There was a memory hole in the opposite wall. O’Brien lifted the grating. Unseen， the frail slip of paper was whirling away on the current of warm air； it was vanishing in a flash of flame. O"Brien turned away from the wall.
“Ashes，”he said.“Not even identifiable ashes. Dust. It does not exist. It never existed.”
“But it did exist！ It does exist！ It exists in memory. I remember it. You remember it.”
“I do not remember it，” said O’Brien.
Winston’s heart sank. That was doublethink. He had a feeling of deadly helplessness. If he could have been certain that O’Brien was lying， it would not have seemed to matter. But it was perfectly possible that O"Brien had really forgotten the photograph. And if so， then already he would have forgotten his denial of remembering it， and forgotten the act of forgetting. How could one be sure that it was simple trickery？ Perhaps that lunatic dislocation in the mind could really happen： that was the thought that defeated him.